Jonny Reid:

Gaynor, welcome back. Just give us a flavor of how much time do you spend with other people, whether it's a coach or parent, throughout your week, throughout your months. What's that sort of time level like?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Okay. So over the last few years, I would say it would definitely be a few hours per week with other parents, lots and lots of phone calls with the coach. It has changed a bit over the last few months because James has changed his coach. He's also learnt to drive, so he can take himself to some of his training sessions rather than us having to sit around there. So that has changed a bit. But I would say the last few years, yeah, quite a number of hours per week sort of sitting around while they do their training session, and more at weekends if there's events on, when you could be there for most of the day. Yeah, just sort of chatting with other parents and sitting on the sideline, yeah.

Graham Daniels:

Gaynor, let's start with the coach on this one then because any parents who have children in these development systems know that actually the relationship with their coach can be tricky because of the demands of a coach, and legitimate ones too.

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yes.

Graham Daniels:

Let's start with ... We'll come to other families as you stand around watching and so on. Tell us about some of the ... Perhaps one or two of the challenges that you've had to negotiate good ones with the coach, and how you've managed them in, I don't know, would you say in a Godly way? In an efficient, but friendly and firm way. How have you done that?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah. So probably the main sticking point with a coach, who has been amazing, I would say that, but the main sort of area where we've probably had slight disagreement was Friday night training sessions. Friday night is the night of the youth group at our church and we decided that we should really make this a priority for our kids, and especially for James as he's missing quite a few Sundays with being away at events and races and things. So we really felt that if he wasn't getting input on a Sunday, he definitely needed it on a Friday. So we've made that a real priority and it meant that we got him to go to an earlier, shorter training session on a Friday so that he could then go straight to youth group, rather than the kind of all evening session that he otherwise would've done. And of course the coach is saying, “Well really, I'd prefer him for longer. I'd prefer him for the whole session, then he can do the full long session with me on a Friday night.”

GAYNOR PENROSE

But we ... Well we just had to think about it. And I think the whole thing, when you've got a sporty youngster who's performing at a really high level, you do have to make lots of compromises and sometimes you do have to take a rather pragmatic approach. I think you either go all for the sport, but then you find out that you're missing out on church and missing out on your church family. And then you're probably going to really struggle and your young person is going to think, “Well, God isn't that important”, you know? Or you go to the other extreme and don't really allow them to fulfill their potential in sport. So yeah, we're sort of always trying to tread at sort of a ... Some sort of path in the middle. But, yeah.

Graham Daniels:

With a coach ... Can I drill down on that with you then?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

So presumably, you need to say to the coach why you want to want to go to youth-group or leave early, because I don't know if the coach would say are you Christian at all or not, and it's not our job to know that.

GAYNOR PENROSE

No, that's right. Yes. Well I would say that we've built up a real sort of relationship over the years, so it was built on relationship. And I would say apart from my family, the person that I spoke to most in the week was James' coach probably, apart from maybe a few colleagues at work. But very regular, quite long phone calls. Partly because James' coach is quite chatty and just loves talking about running and sport and that kind of thing. But yeah, we built up a relationship over that time and he's been incredibly dedicated to James. So it's kind of easier to say things, I suppose. So we were able to say things like, “We just so appreciate everything you're doing. Just the input, the personal attention, the individualized plans, everything, you know? But we're Christians and it's a really important thing for us as well, that we're able to meet together with other Christians and especially because sometimes we're missing out on getting to church, to some of our meetings there. That we really want James and want our other children to be able to go to the youth meetings.”

GAYNOR PENROSE

So it sort of began like that and then we ended up having other conversations then because we were quite close really as a family and spent so much time together, inevitably you talk about the tough stuff that's going on in your lives. And then so the coach will say well, you know, this had happened to his mother and whatever. And we were able to bring God into that, to talk about that. And yeah, so in a way, sometimes us actually having to say God is really important to us and our family, therefore we're actually going to say that's a bit more important than that session. We're going to go for a shorter session rather than a long session because we think this is a priority. That meant that we'd laid in a way, had to sort of say where we were coming from, but that then that opened up other conversations.

Graham Daniels:

Well, the wonderful thing about this ... And by the way, I know Jonny mentioned at the beginning, our previous podcast with Gaynor, and it is fabulous if you're trying to think through the relationship between church and youth group and training and coaching and competition and God's importance, it's a must listen to. And in some ways, it was spilling out of that in this conversation because Gaynor, what strikes me now in having chatted to you a couple of times about this, is you're so front-footed. Instead of complaining that you have to go to training and there's a lot of events and you have to get around and you have to talk to the coach, you've almost viewed this as a chance to go after living in this world, in James' world.

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

And taking Christ into it in behavior and word. That's what it sounds like to me. But it's ... You're put in this world as a parent, which no-one ever thinks about when they're children.

GAYNOR PENROSE

No.

Graham Daniels:

What's it like with parents then? Because you're talking to coaches, who else do you engage with in such a way that conversations emerge?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yes. I mean, it's definitely ... The athletics has become such a big thing in our family, and I would never have dreamt of that. I mean, both myself and my husband, yeah, we're sporty to a degree, but we never played high level sports or anything like that. So we would've never imagined that we were quite in this world. But yeah, there's just been some really great things that have come for that, and I've seen it as a real blessing in our family actually, to have sporty children, and especially one who's gone to be able to do things at sort of international level and things. And then that, you know, it's just ... I think God, thank you for the opportunity. But it does mean that a lot of the people that you hang out with are other sports families, other sports parents, because so much of your time is spent with them.

Graham Daniels:

How do you approach that? How do you approach that? I mean, it seems such a naïve question, it's like asking how do you approach work or how do you approach anything, but your kind of secondary in this room, you're the parent of a child with other parents. How do you approach those relationships? Do you end up in long conversations? What happens?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Well, it sort of depends. I think most of it is ... A lot of it is just sort of banter and chatter on the sideline inevitably, about sort of how they're doing in their sport. But because you spend a lot of time with people, you do build up ... You do sort of build up relationships, so you inevitably end up sharing your lives more because they're the people that you speak to, the people that you get to know. One thing that happened was one night that James was training, a regular evening, I was chatting with one of the other parents. I think her child had not that long joined the group, so it was fairly a sort of new friendship. And we got chatting and we both realized that we were training for a half marathon, the Cardiff half marathon.

GAYNOR PENROSE

And we got chatting, and so we decided to go out and run together whilst the boys were training because we were there for a couple of hours. So we thought well, let's use this to go and train ourselves. And that was really, really nice. So we would often run at a pace where we could sort of chatter. We weren't running that fast, but doing quite long runs. Which are quite hard to do on your own anyway, so it's quite nice to have somebody to do it with. And we built a friendship and ended up just talking about all sorts of things, sharing our lives, including talking about us being a Christian family and our priorities. And yes, so getting some chances to talk about God, which is really amazing.

Graham Daniels:

Parents will know that in a pathway like this, every year children drop out. The bar goes up, the ages go up and the sadness of knowing that your child looks like they're not going to make the cut in the next round, whatever the next round is, the next season or-

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

For you, your son has kept going through the system. Have you had to deal with people who are sad or find it really difficult in the situation, in the running group?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yes. Yes, I have, definitely. It's a really competitive environment. We know it's competitive for the children, but it does get ... Yeah, it spills over to the parents as well. So you get a, you know, maybe a sad child because he's long-term injured or not been running as well or whatever, and it really affects the parents as well. And I have been party to a number of just quite unpleasant exchanges and jealousies. Yeah. Yeah, so just really quite nasty things and sometimes, people complaining about coaches or about somebody else's coach and that kind of thing.

Graham Daniels:

Yeah, now Gaynor, I know with common sense says now that we're not going to talk in detail because there could be people listening who we're talking about.

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

So we're not going to talk about this. I get that, I can see you're being sensitive. But there'll be a lot of people ... There's certainly people who haven't been in your situation, who have no idea what you've just said will be an absolute revelation and they won't understand it at all, right?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

Any parent in this situation, without a shadow of doubt, is party to this kind of conversation regularly. Slagging the coach off-

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

Side snipes at other parent's kids.

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

Often, obviously selection or injury drive that obviously.

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

No, so I'm not asking you to divulge things that would point to certain people in this because I won't know them and we shouldn't need to know them. But how do you handle the snide side comments then, because it's so hard isn't it, to deal with that? How do you do it?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah. Well, I think I ... I mean, sometimes it's appropriate just to ignore and get yourselves away from those conversations and just to walk away and not to be part of it. Other times, I've challenged it and said, “Actually, I've not found that person like that. I think they've got a good heart.” Things like that. I've said things like that. Yeah, other times, I've literally been almost trying to pull people apart. Sadly that has been needed. I don't know if it's always been successful. Yeah, just trying to be salt and light in a fairly ... Just fairly ugly situation some of the time. But yeah, trying to give the other side and trying to help people to see people's hearts as well, you know, when somebody has maybe just been misconstrued or something like that and you say, “Well no, I really don't think that's what they're like.” You know, just trying to challenge it because people take things so personally. Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

So has James been in a situation where he's been injured or not selected, because it looks like he's been pretty much on the up? You must have the wrestle in your heart with this kind of adversity yourself. How do you manage that from a Christian perspective? How do you keep your mouth shut? How do you not get carried away with the whole thing?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah. Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

I mean, you too.

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yes, yeah. It's difficult. Yeah. I think a lot of self-awareness, quite a lot of self-examination. I mean, I'm not exempt from this stuff and getting over-competitive at all. In fact, I think it's been a problem for me at times. You know, you're so excited for your kid that it can end up taking over and it can almost begin to define you. You know, you kind of go from weekend to weekend to the next race or ... And you're almost just sort of living your dreams through your child in a way as well. So I think it's very easy to get caught up in it. And I know I have had times when my sleep has been affected because I am so fixated how James has done or not done or whatever, that it's actually bothering me and it's affecting my sleep. And I really have felt at times, there have been a few times where I've looked at myself and I thought, “James' sport is becoming an idol to you.” And I really felt that, you know?

GAYNOR PENROSE

But it was almost becoming more important than anything else, how he did. You know, my mood would be good, on the up, if he's doing well. My mood goes really low if he does badly. And I remember just thinking, “This isn't right. This is not right. You've got to take some control here.” What are you telling your child, you're telling, you know, I'm really telling my child that it's all about how you do at sport. That's what defines you. So if everything's ... You're doing well, we all feel great and whatever. But if you go badly, oh it's disaster, life's terrible. And really, that's kind of almost how I was acting. But I don't think I was ... Hopefully not doing it out loud, in an obvious way. But I felt in my own heart that's what was going on. So-

Graham Daniels:

So what's your mechanism then? So in our podcast previously, when we talked about church bible time for the whole family to meet with others, you talked about bible studies that sometimes you've done as a family when you miss a Sunday. You talked about Friday night with a youth group. How do you counteract ... Thanks for being honest by the way, because your experience teaches one that there isn't a single person who wouldn't have to say what you've said when they look up to their children. And it's so painful to you, isn't it, when you think, “Oh my word, I'm giving the wrong signal to my child here and I can't seem to stop myself feeling it.”

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah.

Graham Daniels:

So how have you and your own husband countered those emotions then? What are your mechanisms for doing so?

GAYNOR PENROSE

Yeah. I mean, I think staying close to God is the main thing, isn't it? And if you're doing that, then hopefully God is pricking your conscience to see what is going on. So I'm not always the best at doing this, but just trying to have regular time reading the word and praying. Weirdly, I found that one of the best times for me to pray is when I'm running because with our children taking up running, our boys taking up running, that's one thing I got into. I wasn't a runner before, or not ... When I was a teenager, I was. But for a massive gap, I wasn't. So I love getting out in the sort of fresh air, often running, if not walking, and talking to God. And I'm just thinking and talking to God, and I find that's really helpful.

GAYNOR PENROSE

So just spending that time and just ... Yeah, and just having that awareness. It's not right and my conscience being pricked, I'm repenting of that before God and just saying, “This isn't right. It's not how I want to be, and help me to get that right. Help me to get that right.” And talking with my husband about it as well. And I told him I'm not sleeping very well because ... And it shouldn't be like this and I know it shouldn't be like this. So we can sort of help each other, pray for each other and hold each other to account on that as well. And yeah, and talking sometimes with ... You know, we have like little bible study groups and things, being honest about things. It's great if you've got a little group in church or whatever, that you can be honest about these things and ask for help with it.

Graham Daniels:

Gaynor, what we love about having conversations like this is as we draw our conversation to a close today is, at Christians in Sport, we'll often take Matthew 28, the last few lines of Matthew's account of the life of Jesus, where Jesus says to his disciples as he's leaving this world that they are to go and make disciples of all nations. And we often say that the word nations comes from ethnic, the root word is ethnic, and ethnic wasn't a country, a marvelous country like Wales or something or another country like England. But that ethnic is people groups, languages, tribes and tongues. Sub-cultures.

Graham Daniels:

And what you've done elegantly for us today, as you did in the first podcast, is to do what we often say at Christians in Sport, really helps if you're part of a group of people, you've got to be brilliant at being normal. Just be good at being normal if you're going to share the good news of Jesus. And being good at being normal is actually saying where you're vulnerable and fallible and weak. And the simple vulnerability of doing that and saying you need help with that and other people seeing that in you, makes you brilliant at being vulnerably normal, a creature of a creator, and that's when conversations in life start to happen.

Graham Daniels:

And I've no doubt you're too modest to tell us that anybody who hangs around you, watching James run, will think she's a class act. So it's a marvelous thing. Thanks for being a great example of what it is to go after the ethnic, to belong to the ethnic of running groups and national running teams. It's been a real privilege because there's so many people who are trying to work these things through, who follow Jesus, and you've been very helpful to us today, so thanks very much.

GAYNOR PENROSE

You're welcome.