Jonny Reid:

Welcome back to the Christian Sport podcast. I've got two people with me and we're going to chat about a really interesting topic. We're going to chat about pride, we're going to chat about what is the difference between pride and confidence, and competitiveness, and what does that look like? It's a really interesting topic. I've got Pete Brown with me, former professional rugby player. I've got Lisa Elliott with me who was playing county badminton, has played on the national circuit. So I've got people who know about playing at a really good level, but have also played a bit grassroots as well. So before we chat about the issue, I want to chat to you guys about this. Pete, you first, what has been your greatest moment in sports?

Pete Browne:

I think that's a great question to ask anyone at any level of sport. And we've all had those moments. And for me, I think it's pretty hard to look past my debut for Ulster rugby, just with my family connection, my dad and everything. My dad's from Ulster, and playing for ... Yeah, I think that was a proud moment for my family and me, and that feeling was great. And then secondly, probably winning the Amblin cup with Harlequins, which was pretty epic. But beyond that, I would say my best moments, they were more like little sparks of, I did something good. Or I'd remember ... I did something unexpected maybe for a second row who's big and lumbering. I stepped the wing or something, which happened very rarely, but if I did do something, those would be like that little moment, I'd remember that.

Jonny Reid:

And how ... Let's go to Ulster debut. That's the one you said first. How did you feel? What emotions were playing through your mind as you maybe ran out, presumably there's a tunnel.

Pete Browne:

Yes.

Jonny Reid:

What were you thinking, what was going through your mind?

Pete Browne:

I mean it's a fortress, Kingspan Stadium. Massive tunnel. Yeah, I was just thinking, "This is great." And I felt very privileged to be there. It felt like this was my time to go out and show what I could do, and I really, really enjoyed it. My first game, which wasn't an official one, it was against Leinster in a pre-season game, and it was just great to be out there. Sun was shining. My mum and dad were in the stands. It was just one of those days that you ... I won't forget.

Jonny Reid:

Lis, what about you? Badminton, greatest moment.

Lisa Elliott:

Yeah, I think for me being able to play my first, I guess, international circuit tournament was a huge achievement for me. It was something I've always wanted to do since I was growing up. Only did it a few years ago. It was only in Wales, so at a pretty local one. But I say, I just got in. I just managed to get into the singles, and play doubles as well. But I think, yeah, just the feeling of standing, waiting to go out on that court was a pretty special moment.

Lisa Elliott:

I think beyond that in terms of a kind of a personal thing for me was there was one player who I played so many times as a junior growing up. She was a few years older than me and I never managed to beat her. Just every single time when I'd come up against her, could never win. She was kind of an arch-rival in that sense. And there was one tournament I managed to beat her in a tournament and it was just that sense of, "Wow, I never thought I could do this." So that was an internal special moment for me.

Jonny Reid:

Great. Well we're talking about pride in this topic particularly, because it's a battle Christian sports people face, not necessarily because Pete and Lisa are incredibly proud people. Although we're going to get to them. We're going to chat about that in a minute about when they've felt pride, because they're a human. But it's worse as we say, as in I think it's a really important topic, isn't it, in sport? Just to wrestle with and think through. Because I think often being proud, being confident in your ability, having a champion's mentality, believing, "I'm going to win. I'm going to beat them." It is seen as being really important, the need to assert dominance.

Jonny Reid:

The way we do that then, whether we do that through putting our opponent down, questioning whether they are any good or not. We're applauded for playing mind games. We see that in top level sport a lot. And I think whether a top level sport, or grass roots level sport, pride is equally prevalent. I know for me, playing hockey. We can look at someone's warmup and go "Well that looks amateur." And just look down on them. Or we exaggerate our past performances when we join a new team, don't we? To impress our teammates. "I played county once. I was in the training squad." Whatever it might be. And pride is everywhere in sport. And then for Christians, let's be really clear. Firstly, we live entirely in light of what Jesus done, there's nothing we can do to make ourselves right before God.

Jonny Reid:

Please don't hear us saying, "Don't be proud and then you can be right and accepted before God." No. We all need God's amazing grace in light of what God has done. But now we're called as those who have followed him to live lives which honor him. Live lives which reflect how he lived. The great humble God that we worship. And in his lessons in Philippians Paul, the apostle Paul, he encourages his readers to have a very different attitude to the one which is often advocated by the sporting world. He says "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, rather in humility value others above yourselves. Not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interest of others."

Jonny Reid:

So that's a wrestle we're in here. We've got sporting culture on one hand. We've got what Paul is saying in the Bible sitting on the other hand, in some ways. It's a bit of a false dichotomy. They're not necessarily completely at odds with each other, and that's what we're going to talk about today. But, Pete, coming to you first then, particularly on this issue of pride, how have you seen that played out in your sport, in rugby?

Pete Browne:

I think it's something that, this idea that you are unpacking in terms of competitiveness, in terms of dominance. We think about dominance within rugby and you think about physicality. And I think it's having a knowledge. I think that what we're going to come on to talk about in terms of that difference between pride and confidence, but having a knowledge that you can physically dominate someone, that requires a certain mentality to do that. And I think this whole area is one where we have to be, as Christians, we have to be grappling with it. This is why the whole idea of this is dealing with ... This is something which is going to be prevalent within our sport. We have to constantly look back at this. And I found in my rugby, that I had to get myself up for games at times.

Pete Browne:

I wasn't always naturally the most aggressive person. So I had to pump myself up at times and I'd often listen to Christian rap music, just to keep it clean. And that would ... Those beats, everything within me that would help me get up for these games. And therefore that idea of competitiveness or putting one over on your opponent, of having pride in dominating your opponent as it were, it's very easy to make that go over the edge, and I found that difficult at times. And at times I'd find myself winding up opponents, doing little annoying things on whatever that I could get away with.

Jonny Reid:

How did you find it relationally? So as in we spoke to you a number of episodes back about your career as a whole. And I remember one of the things was you were at university up in Durham, but then beginning to play professional rugby. How did you find it going back to university? Did you find it a real wrestle within you? A bit like, "Wow, I'm playing pro rugby now." Was that a battle for pride?

Pete Browne:

Oh yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, I haven't really thought about that, but yeah, probably. I mean, and I played English students as well. Back when you're 18, 19 years old and you had a bit of stash, you wear it. And I'd be around the rather large campus wearing England tracksuit bottoms. So yeah, there probably was a bit of pride. And I think I expected a certain amount of respect because of what I'd achieved. But at the same time I think something again that we're going to talk about, but I could easily show false humility. I could easily be like, "Oh no. I'm Pete Browne. I'm nothing. Don't worry me. Just play a little bit of rugby. It's nothing."

Pete Browne:

So yeah, I think it's ... Yeah, that's an interesting thought to bring back to, in terms of being a big fish in a smaller pond that was Durham University. At that time, whether I was a big fish, that's another question. Another false humility. That's another-

Jonny Reid:

That's where pride comes in doesn't it? Yeah, because pride comes in doesn't it? It comes in both with us and our opponents, but also within our own teammates. Often more prevalent. Lis, how have you found? Individual sports, generally, you play doubles as well. But individual sports generally, how have you found it in yourself and within your world of badminton?

Lisa Elliott:

Yeah, no. It definitely, being an individual sport. I mean it picks up on what Pete said about, it all being about you. I think in badminton, it being, singles especially, it does feel very much like you. You define your warmup, you define how you mentally prepare. It's all about you and your time. And then when you're on the court, you're just very aware of people watching you. You're aware of other players, people that have come to watch you specifically, other coaches that are there around you. And even beforehand, I think this is something which I've struggled with before tournaments. The draw gets released couple of days before the tournament day. So all the time you're looking, if you seeded, where is your opponent ranked? You check the ranking lists.

Lisa Elliott:

All the time, there's kind of a comparison game of, "Oh, should I beat them? Should I not be them? Who should beat who?" And so you're comparing yourself before you get there. And then if you do beat someone you're not meant to, there's definitely a temptation there to feel proud. If you beat a seed or you're the underdog. So yeah, I think I felt that a little bit with, in preparing for tournaments. And then if you are seeded in the tournament, everyone knows you are. And so there's that temptation for arrogance, I guess, as you are kind of walking around the sports hall on the day.

Pete Browne:

It's really interesting that you say that. I suppose it's slightly different with a team sport because I had 36 guys at times to bring me down a peg if anything ever was said or something. But at the same time, there was competition within the actual team, and you felt that. We're a team, you want to be competitive within that team, within the rugby environment, to help each other get better. But you also want to be starting, or you want to be on the bench, or you want to be progressing in that way. So, let's say there was maybe a seasoned international, which you then get an opportunity to play ahead of them or something. Or they weren't there, then yeah, there was probably a tendency for you to feel a bit of pride about that, about getting that position. Exactly like you. Probably similar to the comparison thing in terms of seedings, which is really interesting.

Jonny Reid:

Help us really nail down what is right and what is wrong here. What is the Bible calling us against versus what is fine. We talked, Pete you mentioned it, on the difference between pride and confidence. And Lisa, we'll come to you first actually on this. So when those rankings release, your seating's release, and you see it and you're ... Let's say you're ranked five, and you're playing someone ranked 12. We've talked about false humility. It's not like you're sitting there going, "Oh well I don't expect to win that." Or, "Oh, well." There's nothing wrong with being confident about your position, but what's so seriously wrong about pride? What does it do?

Lisa Elliott:

Yeah, definitely. Because when that game happens, like it's not like, as a Christian, I'm saying, "Oh no, I'm just going to let them win." I'm going to be humble in that sense. But I think the difference with pride is that you're just pointing people to yourself, and you're wanting people to see how good you are. You're wanting people to see you win a particular game. Whereas confidence, for me, is recognizing that it's God that's given me my gifts to play. And actually I don't want people to celebrate me. I want people to be pointed towards God.

Lisa Elliott:

As I do try and play my best, which doesn't always happen, but he knows I try and use my abilities to the max. I want people to see that God's given me those gifts. And I think a big part of that is enjoyment. Actually as I'm on the court. If I'm enjoying playing, if I'm enjoying using my abilities to the max and not feeling that kind of pressure, or if I didn't meet my seed, and what if I didn't meet my ranking, then it's going to have a negative effect on my attitude. And the way I am on the court and off the court. But actually there's a way of pointing people away from myself and pointing people to something greater.

Pete Browne:

That's good. That's really good. Really good. See I-

Jonny Reid:

Yeah, Pete, how did you find that?

Pete Browne:

Yeah, great answer from Lisa. And I'd completely agree. It's me-centered. Pride is me-centered. It's all about me. There's no way of having anyone talk to you about improvement or anything, because it's something you own, and it's all about you. Whereas confidence is something that involves trust, and trust in abilities. I'd say confidence. So therefore when Lisa says that she believed those abilities and trusted those abilities from God, that takes it away from yourself and puts it to something bigger. And when you take that onus away from yourself and everything being about you. And when you have as we do as Christians, and hope we can maintain a perspective of identity in Christ, that therefore means you can have a freedom to play, a freedom to enjoy.

Jonny Reid:

Let's go there. Just what do you mean by identity in Christ?

Pete Browne:

So, when we as people accept Jesus, when we know that we have done wrong, have ... Maybe competitiveness has led us to the sin, or whatever it is, we see wrong in ourselves. And we therefore understand that there is a God of the universe who is perfect. And he had a plan in and through Jesus, who is perfect, who is fully man and fully God came down and he was able to be the sacrifice, the way for us to have a right relationship with God. And when we accept that through Jesus's death and resurrection and his perfect life as well, we are therefore in Christ. That means our identity. When God looks at us, looks at those who are Christians, he sees Christ. He doesn't see the wrong that I do. He doesn't see all of my flaws. He sees Jesus. Which is incredible when I think about how bad I am inside, the wrong things that I think. The way that I sin every day. This word sin which we throw around all the time. Just the bad that I do.

Pete Browne:

And therefore when I am in Christ, it should therefore mean that, even though I know that my ... I understand where my gifts and abilities come from, because they come from God. And the onus is not just on me using those to glorify God, which then puts an onus on me that I need to do this. This is something, this takes away from that idea of grace. This takes away from that idea of these are given by good father. So God has given me my gifts because he's a good father and he loves me, and he wants me to enjoy them. And that's what Lisa was talking about, that sort of enjoyment in them. So therefore when we get rid of all the clutter of, where do I fit in terms of my team? Where do I fit in terms of being, a starter? Where do I fit in terms of winning every day? Which we want to do to the best of our abilities.

Pete Browne:

But at the same time, God has given us the freedom to just enjoy playing. Because my identity, who I am in Christ is in that. It's above my performance. It's above whether I get picked or not. It's above whether I use my abilities to the best of my ability. So I hope that's covered it in some way.

Jonny Reid:

That's really helpful. I think it's that a side of identity, isn't it? Of who we are. It can be freeing if we know that we are loved, no matter how well we do or how badly we do, what ranking we are, whether we're in the team or if we're not in the team. There is a release that it's not all about us. We're not defined by whether we're in that starting jersey or whether we've beaten somebody ranked above us. And there's a freedom. Lis, help us think through what, how else do we help rejig our perspective on this? Because it's, as Pete said, we are naturally rebels. We're naturally all about ourselves. That is what fundamentally as we talked about, the sinner so much is, we put our self in place of God. How do we help reaching our perspective on this?

Lisa Elliott:

Yeah. Yeah. And it is hard, as you said, because we are naturally ... Naturally we're sinful. Where naturally it is all about us. But as we mentioned at the start, Philippians 2 is so helpful. And as Paul tells us to do nothing, it's a selfish ambition, but to value others above ourselves. But then as well as telling us to do that, he gives us the example of Jesus, and where better to look for an example of pure humility. When you think about Jesus, it says in verse 6, you being in very nature of God, but not consider equality with God. Something to be used for his own advantage. Jesus is saying that, Lord Jesus is God. He's the greatest he can be. Yet he humbled himself to become nothing. Think if the savior of the universe can do that, then what an amazing, set an example to follow for us. So you'd use-

Jonny Reid:

It's incredibly attractive isn't it? If Jesus would have been incredibly attractive to be around. And for us, you can think about it in your own teams, you're own sports, can't you? There's some people you do see who, they could be the best player on the pitch, but they don't act large in that way, do they?

Lisa Elliott:

Yeah, totally. And I think there's a thing about status as well. Jesus, he didn't consider his status. He didn't kind of worry about what people thought about his status. I think that's something that we can quite easy fall into that trap of worrying what people think of me. Whereas Jesus wasn't concerned about what others thought, but more what he came to do. And to serve others, to do everything he could to put others above himself, which I think is actually a huge challenge for us.

Jonny Reid:

So Lis, we've talked about Philippians 2 here. Philippians 2, rather in humility value others above yourselves. Not looking to your own interest, but each of you to the interest of others. What on earth does that look like?

Lisa Elliott:

Yeah, it's tough isn't it? Because it's definitely not saying, "Just let your opponent win." I could easily look at that and say, "Value others above yourselves. The best thing for them is to win the match." Of course not, we're competitive sports people and we want to play to the best of our ability to win a match. I think it's more about valuing your opponent, or valuing others above yourself. To value them as people.

Lisa Elliott:

And so I think, in badminton often you can play a match and your opponent doesn't even acknowledge you. They're so focused on their own game. They won't even talk to you. At the end they'll just kind of not even shake your hand properly. So I think something for me is, I just try and say hello at the start of a match. I'll make an effort to properly shake their hand at the end of the game. I think just small things, which, I guess, show that you aren't purely focused on yourself, and you want to share some of that with them, without being soft and giving them a win.

Pete Browne:

Yeah. That was pretty good. And it's interesting for me listening to this because I'm retired. So I'm listening to this as ... I'm looking in hindsight. I'm like, "I could've done that better." Which is nice.

Lisa Elliott:

Yeah. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying we do it all the time.

Pete Browne:

No, no. But I think it's good. I think in rugby there is a natural ... There are conversations that go on throughout the game. You're constantly talking to the teammates, and you're constantly saying calls and repeating them. And the other team over here, and they can have some banter about that and stuff. But after the game, I'd probably the same as Lisa, I would make ... If someone had gone off injured and I saw them go off or something, I'd just shake their hand. I'd be like, "You all right? How's your ankle?" Dah, dah, dah. Just acknowledging that actually this game isn't everything. Trying to make that clear that this game isn't everything. There's more to life than winning and losing a rugby game as it were. Even though if we've won, I'm really happy we've won.

Jonny Reid:

The point there isn't it is that they have equal value? So when it comes to pride, that's what pride does, doesn't it? It basically goes, "I'm better than you." For whatever reason. Actually, as we stop and we acknowledge that this person who we're competing against, or this team that I'm playing with is equity valued, because they are equally created and made in the image of God. They're made by God just as much as we are. Then that's maybe a helpful thing just to ponder and think about it, isn't it?

Pete Browne:

Definitely. Definitely. I think, yeah. Yeah. The equality of all of us. All of us are the same, so making sure we keep that perspective.

Jonny Reid:

We all need Jesus. We all need Jesus.

Pete Browne:

Yes. Amen.

Jonny Reid:

As we someway end this, this conversation could go on for hours, and it's a good conversation. But as we try and sort of land a little bit, what have you guys found are some practical things do in that moment when pride does swell up? That confidence, that right acknowledgement of the good thing done, but not as confidence. Hey you've sidestepped that winger, Pete, and you've run to the line and you've scored a try in front of Kingsholm. That is a good thing. There's nothing wrong with going, "Yes, that's great." We want to say that. But when that then ekes over into the sort of swagger and the, "Treat me differently now." Or you're looking down on the other locks because they can't do that, or they haven't done that recently. And what are some of the practical things we can do to help remember our status?

Pete Browne:

Like you said, I think it's key that we do acknowledge when things go well. And we as Christians, we're called to pursue excellence as well. We're called to make the most of these gifts which God has given us. But it's like you said, it's maintaining that and reminding ourselves, I think, and remembering the perspective of we are only where we are because of Jesus. Jesus is the only reason we can have our relationship with God. We can be in Christ and therefore we can have freedom to enjoy our sport. And when it becomes about yourself, like we said, that's when there are issues there, and there's pride. So one thing I'd say in terms of ... I would say, remember your gifts are from God. We need to remind ourselves.

Pete Browne:

So there are scriptures which we could learn. Maybe a bit like this one in Philippians, which we've looked at, where Paul's talking to a church which is doing really well. And he's saying, "Don't get ahead of yourselves. Just stay humble, okay. Remember you are only here because of Jesus." It's just the only way that we can live these lives. And don't look down on the society around you, just look to serve them. I think that's an incredible gift that we have, which is scripture, to be able to just repeat those things. And whether that be something like Ephesians 2:8-10 where it just talks about we are only able to have a relationship with God because of Jesus and faith, not because of what we do.

Pete Browne:

This is this whole idea of grace. So reminding ourselves to grace and reminding that we are in Christ. Yeah, I would say that would be the thing. And that also involves talking to other guys who are Christians as well, and who are sportsman, and having like that sort of community and fellowship where you're able to be like, "I played well last week, and I got a bit ahead of myself. I shouted at my teammate because I just felt like he wasn't doing his job, and I felt like I was better than him." And actually then they can call you out on that and say, "Do you think that was the right response to have?" And it's this idea of accountability of just having that fellowship with other believers who are dealing with these same things, and I'm wanting to react and to improve.

Pete Browne:

I think in all of sport we're wanting to improve. We're wanting to improve our skills as it were. And these things in terms of, we call it in Christianity call it sanctification, becoming more like Jesus, having more of a perspective like Jesus. And if we can do that bit by bit, that is a real gift.

Jonny Reid:

Can hear your dog now Pete. Dog's getting excited. Lis, what about you for some of the practical things you found helpful?

Lisa Elliott:

Yeah. I'll pick up on what Pete said about the kind of accountability. And I've actually been really fortunate to have another Christian who has been on this circuit. Who we see each other at tournaments lots. And it's been so encouraging for us to try and meet up at tournaments and we do try and pray together. We try and look at a verse in the Bible together. And that's been so helpful to ... Just in that moment when you're about to go and play a match to say, "Come on, let's just focus on Jesus for a few minutes to remind ourself of where our gifts come from." And so that's been a real encouragement for me. Even when you see ... I see her around the hall, and it's just that little reminder of who I am.

Lisa Elliott:

I think another big one as well is prayer. Traveling around a little bit, it's good to have time in the car on the way just to pray. That for me has been really helpful, just to remind myself of who I am. That I have a Father in Heaven who loves me. And to try and start the day with that mindset has been really helpful because when you do enter that sports hall and the same people around you, and you feel the pressure a little bit of what's going on. Just to try and start the day, remembering that, yeah, I'm loved, and actually my performance doesn't change and who I am.

Jonny Reid:

Great. Well thanks so much both. I'm sure there's loads more we could have dived into there. It's a helpful conversation as we just try and look at what it looks like to be a Christian in the world of sport, and what it looks like to live in response to what Jesus has done, and live with him now as our example in light of acknowledging that he's a giver of good gifts, acknowledging that we deserve nothing. That's partly where it comes from, doesn't it? Understanding the fact that when we're called to value others above ourselves, it's because our value without Christ is nothing in some sense. We need him.

Jonny Reid:

And then we see this brilliant clause, don't we? As as we looked at Philippians 2:2. "Do nothing out of selfless ambition or vain conceit. Rather in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interest but each of you to the interests of others. In your relationships with one another have the same mindset of Christ. You being in the very nature God did not consider a quality was something to be used to his own advantage. Rather he made himself nothing. Taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness." It's amazing, the God we worship, the God we look to serve as we play our sports.

Jonny Reid:

We will get it wrong. Praise God that he is a gracious and loving father. That is a really helpful conversation and one to keep wrestling with.